tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post6715301297022689652..comments2023-12-06T00:23:28.790+11:00Comments on Press gallery reform: Lessons from the Qantas shutdownAndrew Elderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04705844456819481896noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-13509948842958745312011-11-10T09:44:06.132+11:002011-11-10T09:44:06.132+11:00Andrew - OK sorry about that. Last comment was mad...Andrew - OK sorry about that. Last comment was made in a great hurry. On The Drum November 8 http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3650770.html Peter Lewis wrote about public response to Essential Media question about who was to blame for the QANTAS stoush. He observed that all players (including the Unions) were blamed for the stuff up except Fairwork Australia which got a fairly favorable response. He was maybe making too much of this but it seemed a reasonable extrapolation of a bit of polling. Having just read HS comment above about public support for the Union stance in this mess I thought Lewis' piece was relevant. I hope I haven't outsourced my brain to poll results yet, but I do find them interesting pointers in the fog of online political opinion to what is actually happening. I see they are beginning to show that the tide is turning as you have predicted. May the trend continue.Doug Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00101072468101492041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-86813705494856886122011-11-09T12:18:41.768+11:002011-11-09T12:18:41.768+11:00Andrew - I note that you have consistently defied ...Andrew - I note that you have consistently defied the commentariat and said for many months that Tony Abbott was a dead man walking with a big soft majority. Oh, how right you were. Surely in a just world you would be earning $300,000 a year as a pundit for a major newspaper. However, those jobs seem to be reserved for fools who get everything wrong, which means you are unqualified.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-49777442019849546912011-11-08T21:38:28.130+11:002011-11-08T21:38:28.130+11:00Persse: you're right about how unions don'...Persse: you're right about how unions don't deserve all the credit they would hog for themselves. I think Qantas' problems are fixable but whether the current managers are the guys to do it is an open question.<br /><br />Fiona: all in good time.<br /><br />Anonymous: it is not clear what 'job' this government would do on Qantas. I suspect they would have just kicked the can down the road a bit. Joyce has shifted the debate, and he can only lose it if the worst outcome happens.Andrew Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04705844456819481896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-11278468916368983292011-11-08T21:32:04.211+11:002011-11-08T21:32:04.211+11:00Doug Evans, if you insist on your pollster fanboy ...Doug Evans, if you insist on your pollster fanboy stuff, please post a link rather than the whole thing.<br /><br />Bearspot:<br /><br />"Joyce is making a mistake taking advice from Clifford on this."<br /><br />You might be right. I'm more than a little alarmed by all of these instant experts on brand management who've popped up out of the woodwork over the last fortnight or so. <br /><br />You'll find that many of the people who get on and off planes are neither management nor unionised worker, part of the workforce that the 19th century construct of unionism cannot cope with.<br /><br />This post isn't about who's wrong or right, but about who played the game with everything they had versus dilettantes who let their members down.<br /><br />"qantas can't buy off its workers. it has to deal with the unions and persuade them to take a haircut. The qantas problems go back to the Geoff Dixon era where bad decisions on aircraft were made and when a decision should have been made to get the workers onside for the changes that had to occur."<br /><br />I'm well aware that Qantas can't buy off its workers, and am sorry I didn't make that clear. Joyce, Clifford et al need to find something other than cash or perks to secure employee and customer loyalty, good luck with that. <br /><br />What's equally true is that the unions have let their members down. Union members have been screwed over because Tony Sheldon and his silly mates didn't understand what was going on. You may think that people are obliged to stick by a union no matter what: bullshit to that. If those turkeys are going to take your money and do this to you, they're no better than the SDA.<br /><br />"I am a commmitted unionist and I know that you can bring in massive change if you take the time to get the workers onside."<br /><br />I'm not a committed unionist and I knew that already. I'd know it if that dispute had never taken place. See Persse's comment.<br /><br />"I would be making a case for government funding from the tourism budget to help qantas compete."<br /><br />I wouldn't. Tourism is the only private sector industry that has the government foot its marketing bill, and it's doing a crap job of it. You're right about the subsidies but counter-subsidies haven't worked and won't work this time. <br /><br />"I know that had you choking on your weeties"<br /><br />If you knew as much as you need to, you'd know I don't eat weeties and that my breakfast went down just fine.Andrew Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04705844456819481896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-32931900285739121052011-11-08T21:08:05.945+11:002011-11-08T21:08:05.945+11:00The trouble with all this sound and fury is "...The trouble with all this sound and fury is "work whatever" or "whatever work" did it's job. <br /><br />Why didn't Joyce go for arbitration; instead closing down an airline; and getting the government to do his job? Joyce just looks like a bloody fool.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-79122887747197025412011-11-08T19:24:19.942+11:002011-11-08T19:24:19.942+11:00Thank you, Andrew. Now, I do hope that you busy gi...Thank you, Andrew. Now, I do hope that you busy giving Ms Crabb one of your splendid forensic once-overs for this: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-08/crabb-carbon-legislation-abbott-demolition/3652544.<br /><br />I can hardly wait.Fionanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-78679915938884966492011-11-08T12:22:35.827+11:002011-11-08T12:22:35.827+11:00'....and Leigh Clifford, who showed the mining...'....and Leigh Clifford, who showed the mining unions that once management lift their game on pay and OHS the unions have little to offer prospective members.'<br /><br />Quite true, but surely it is a white cat, black cat, situation. And, in itself, driven by unions organising. I don't see that taking away their raison d'etre by adopting the same policies counts as a loss.<br />I have sworn of Qantas because their service has become rubbish - but on the last flight I was on in August from Heathrow to Melbourne many of the passengers applauded on landing, because the landing was perfect despite the bad weather.Perssehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02425655969625894880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-85956706841586616162011-11-08T09:34:50.871+11:002011-11-08T09:34:50.871+11:00not totally in lockstep with you on qantas. Joyce ...not totally in lockstep with you on qantas. Joyce is making a mistake taking advice from Clifford on this. mining companies and mining unions bashing each other up in the desert is a long way from a service sector company going to war with its members who have face time with members of the public. when Joyce grounded the airline he was on the air waves while the union members were up close and personal with the stranded public. and you say Clifford and his mob effectively bought off the workers with big pay rises. it is easy in mining where you are always short of workers and your customers are there to be milked. qantas can't buy off its workers. it has to deal with the unions and persuade them to take a haircut. The qantas problems go back to the Geoff Dixon era where bad decisions on aircraft were made and when a decision should have been made to get the workers onside for the changes that had to occur. I am a commmitted unionist and I know that you can bring in massive change if you take the time to get the workers onside. qantas also has to make a case against the vanity airline competition. those mid east airlines mostly who are hugely subsidized and don't have the same cost restraints. I would be making a case for government funding from the tourism budget to help qantas compete. I know that had you choking on your weeties but qantas is not competing on a level playing field. if we want a national flagship we should pay for it.bearspothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06048664887867437896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-72642716321981304092011-11-08T00:20:09.146+11:002011-11-08T00:20:09.146+11:00Michael, it's one of the symptoms of conservat...Michael, it's one of the symptoms of conservative failure that they hop into Labor for doing things supported by conservatives elsewhere. Look at McMahon bagging Whitlam for going to China in 1972, shortly before Nixon went. <br /><br />Anonymous, I think Qantas have underestimated people like you (us?) in terms of loyalty. The heat from this issue will fade but so too will be loyalty to Qantas as a superior, more reliable airline.<br /><br />HS, there's a lot of sympathy to be sure - not a lot we can do to help, though. Flexibility, ultimately, means not being beholden to any one employer (or airline as a customer), whereas the drone who has a 'job for life' is somehow less beholden to their employer than the skilled professional who has options and will assert them. <br /><br />I don't think unions are "so 1980s", but I do think those that participated in this to-do have been inept. What is "so 1980s" however is your claim that "the Rubicon is crossed". Oh, please: the breakdown of protectionism was well underway by about 1985, and nobody has any excuse for not seeing this coming and taking better steps to counter it than we've seen from the unions so far.<br /><br />In terms of sympathy for featherbedded employees and porkbarrelled management: love to help you guys but I've got a plane to catch, here's some sympathy in the meantime.Andrew Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04705844456819481896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-63090645245939564802011-11-07T23:54:08.087+11:002011-11-07T23:54:08.087+11:00I think you have missed two important points here,...I think you have missed two important points here, Andrew.<br /> Firstly, the Australian public are on side with the Unions in this dispute with Clifford and Joyce, precisely because they can see the end run and they don't like the look of it. That is, driving down the wages and burning off the reasonable conditions the citizenry in Australia expect Qantas to give to their hard-working employees. Qantas want to treat their employees worse than the Cattle Class flyers. Which is pretty bad. That is, they want to pay them like 3rd World employees. <br /> If this Rubicon is crossed with Qantas, and the play by Clifford and Joyce succeeds, then it will be on for young and old throughout the economy. Which is what the Gen Pub don't like the smell of, and I don't blame them. 'Flexibility' my bum. The 'flexibility' is all the bosses way, and it starts with the workforce bending over and taking one for the team.<br /> Secondly, the travelling public don't like being used as pawns in the slimy capitalists game.<br /> You may think the Unions are so 1980s, but that's what makes Australia a beacon of decency in the world. <br /> Tony Sheldon, on the other hand, is a Drama Queen, like his dear old mum. And Gai Brodtmann got my vote for ALP President. If she can live with and marry a Liberal she must have incredible forebearance.HillbillySkeletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056151016359730712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-61511066619885445832011-11-07T23:19:12.522+11:002011-11-07T23:19:12.522+11:00I fly regularly. I will not fly Qantas in future ...I fly regularly. I will not fly Qantas in future as I cannot rely on them. A CEO who grounds all flights without warning and sends a woman on a fourteen hour car trip to make a meeting can get.........Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-45640911447122376632011-11-07T22:27:48.788+11:002011-11-07T22:27:48.788+11:00Things are startign to go south for Tny Aboott and...Things are startign to go south for Tny Aboott and his merry gang of yahoos. I don't hold much stock in polls, but I'd be surprised if the turnaround seen in the past few isn't convincingly continued with tomorrow's results. I may be giving the general public too much credit, but it's possible that people are starting to learn that an opposition that acts like my 2 year old nephew may not be the best choice for the next government.<br /><br />And how was their reaction to Gillard's IMF anncouncements. Talk about sticking your gun in your trousers and blowing your own dick off. If the big end of town have any confidence left in Abbott and Hockey after this week, then they are bigger fools than I thought.Michael Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14888283343086845853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-77872702370801525912011-11-07T20:28:42.664+11:002011-11-07T20:28:42.664+11:00Thanks bearspot.
BB, my point is that it will onl...Thanks bearspot.<br /><br />BB, my point is that it will only happen once planes start crashing - the bingles we're seeing now are having no impact. I agree that Qantas have been dumb in not securing workforce loyalty, and having stripped away the perks I don't think they have given nearly enough thought to what should replace it, given that they're not stuffing anyone's mouths with cash.Andrew Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04705844456819481896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-27052600335166191242011-11-07T20:16:07.811+11:002011-11-07T20:16:07.811+11:00"the odd engine malfunction in some far-off p..."the odd engine malfunction in some far-off place is having no impact on questions of safety, job security and engineering utility. "<br /><br />You're kidding, right?<br /><br />Take it from this nervous flyer: once Qantas starts pranging planes, just like other airlines, then they'll be ... just another airline.<br /><br />The one thing they have going for them isn't the ging-ho "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie" schtick. It's what Rainman said: "Qantas never crashed.".<br /><br />Anything that serve to break that spell - including getting rid of their loyal workforce - spells disaster for Qantas.Bushfire Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22534369.post-83086334342177673292011-11-07T19:21:10.666+11:002011-11-07T19:21:10.666+11:00The end is coming for Tony. The super backflip don...The end is coming for Tony. The super backflip done without Robb in the room and while that jaapie corman was saying the opposite must mean his use by date is coming. the anti dumping policy he and Sophie cooked up and dumped at a business round table is a stinker. Although it does feed into the don't give money to the Imf theme given a run last week. and fud I hear him say today he would fund the super by scrapping the nbn. you can't make this stuff up. if it was a labor leader chucking this monkey pooh around the Australian would be publishing hourly. the biggest worry in this country should be an early election that puts Abbott and his rabble in office. what would happen if he believes even half the shite he is peddling and decides to run with it? hockeynomics loves to talk about sovereign risk . an Abbott govt would show Joe what it really means.bearspothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06048664887867437896noreply@blogger.com